[Leaplist] Different netbooks ... CPU and GPU limitations (or not) ...

Richard F. Ostrow Jr. rich at warfaresdl.com
Wed Jan 13 17:57:26 EST 2010 

On my last laptop I made _certain_ that I had hyperthreading support. Not
because of performance (I understood it only had a few instructions it
could handle in parallel), but so I could actually test for race
conditions in multi-threaded code I was writing. At the time, nothing was
multi-core, and I've never seen a dual-CPU laptop. Still, I was aware that
even with hyperthreading, I would not be able to reliably test for race
conditions - it was just a minor step up. I ended up paying ~$1800 for the
thing, and I was willing to pay three times as much for a good machine
that actually fit my requirements (as it turned out, none did). I sold it
to my brother a couple months back for $50, still in good condition
(although it had more mileage than my car from the travel I had put it
through).
On Wed, January 13, 2010 5:46 pm, Kevin Korb wrote:
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> I agree completely about Hyper-Threading.  It sucked horribly on the P4
> back when it came out.  I had actually thought that Intel abandoned it
> until I got my EeePC and it had 2 "logical" CPUs.  Having the system try
> to multi-thread across 2 CPUs that are really the same CPU is worse than
> a
> waste of time.
>
> Picture 2 way traffic on a 1 lane road and you get the idea what HT is.
> It isn't quite that bad but it is close.
>
> I can't say I have any experience with it on systems with lots of CPUs
> though.  I think a dual P4 was the highest system I ever saw HT on and it
> ran better with HT turned off.
>
>
> On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:37:46 -0800 (PST)
> "Bryan J. Smith" <b.j.smith at ieee.org> wrote:
>> Hyperthreading on a single or dual-core Atom is like putting a
>> supercharger on a Yugo.  Intel is marketing non-sense again.  The whole
>> idea was to have hyperthreading across multiple Atom cores.  Now it's
>> being marketed like the Pentium 4 was, totally useless.
>>
>> Hyperthreading purposely kills performance of the Atom, everything
>> will run much, much slower.  The original idea for hyperthreading was
>> to distribute, say, five or even six (5-6) threads, across, say, quad
>> (4)
>> of 2-issue Atom cores.  That would work well.  Not faster in immediate
>> performance, but more work done over time, despite inefficiencies.
>>
>> Hyperthreading on a single or dual-core Atom is a joke, and will almost
>> always result in worse performance.  It's really designed so a batch of
>> Atom X cores (where X is at least 4) can run more like X+X/2 threads --
>> 50% more.
>>
>> Atom's are 2-issue, in-line, "I get it I do it" non-speculative,
>> non-predicting, non-anything.  They are simple in design for a reason
>> --
>> lots of small cores running lots of different threads from a pool.
>>
>> -- Bryan
>>
>> P.S.  Software RAID-5?  You're going to tie-up the entire interconnect
>> so you can't do jack with MythTV.  Understand one of the original
>> targets
>> for a quad-core Atom was to _be_ the intelligence of a dedicated
>> RAID-5/6 controller -- not the end-system.
>>
>> Maybe this is the best way to put it ...  ;)
>>
>> "The Atom is a 2-issue micro_controller_ -- _not_ a micro_processor."
>>
>>
>> P.P.S.  The Marvell cards are actually designed with _software_ support
>> that is _not_ open source.  The Broadcom-Marvell approach is to give
>> you a basic, "part-hardware" software intelligence for RAID and
>> _charge_
>> for the "part-software" management components in a varying "software
>> stack."  It's neither 100% hardware nor 100% GPL in software.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Richard F. Ostrow Jr. <rich at warfaresdl.com>
>>
>> I, too, have two atom-based systems - an Atom 320 (1.6 GHz w/
>> hyperthreading) that I was trying out as a mythtv backend, and an Atom
>> 330 that I'm using in my car (1.6 GHz dual core w/ hyperthreading). The
>> 320 actually had 4 SATA connectors that I ended up putting 4 1TB hard
>> drives into a software RAID-5 on. However, I'm afraid that I terribly
>> underestimated the CPU requirements of mythtv on the backend side...
>> the
>> commercial scanning (which is really the only CPU-dependent task it
>> has)
>> is now over a month behind on the recordings, working around the clock
>> 24/7. Add to that the problem that the thing crashes mythtv for some
>> reason without explanation (a problem I did not have with my old athlon
>> 64), and sometimes records video rather sloppily (jerky audio and
>> video)... and I'm about done with this system for that purpose. I was
>> hoping to reduce my power requirements, but it simply isn't going to
>> work.
>>
>> On the other hand, the Atom 330 in my car seems to be adequately up to
>> the task... it has no issues running my car pc software, doesn't fail
>> to
>> POST with my touchscreen (as my last mini-itx form-factor machine (A
>> Via
>> C7)did), and theoretically can run actively for quite a while on the
>> car
>> battery before it would need to shut itself down to avoid running the
>> battery down too far. I had originally purchased a PCI GeForce 5600 for
>> it for my limited graphics processing needs, but find that the intel
>> chipset can actually handle what I'm throwing at it (to my surprise).
>> My
>> only gripe with the thing is that it has a RAID daughterboard from
>> Marvell that falsely claims it has linux support (it was originally
>> going to be my mythtv backend server). The car has no need for such a
>> thing, so I removed it.
>>
>> In both cases, they have a very wide temperature and humidity tolerance
>> (critical for my car, and important for my mythtv backend, which I've
>> located in my garage).
>>
>> I should also note that neither of these are "netbooks" - I absolutely
>> refuse to pick up such a machine.
>>
>> On Wed, January 13, 2010 11:23 am, Kevin Korb wrote:
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>> > I have 2 Atom based systems.  They have their uses but you are
>> correct
>> > about them being weak.
>> >
>> > The first is my 10" EeePC with an Atom N270 (single core 1.6GHz).  I
>> > only use it for IRC, email, web browsing, ssh, Audacious, and the
>> > occasional classic arcade style game.  For those purposes it works
>> > decently.  The crappy SSD that Asus ships is actually more limiting
>> > than the CPU is. But
>> > the CPU is still strong enough that things like disk encryption and
>> > OpenVPN tunneling do not make a noticeable difference in performance
>> > (probably because the SSD is only slightly faster than a thumb
>> drive).
>> > With my usage which generally involves both heavy wi-fi usage,
>> > encryption,
>> > and music playing I usually get right at 4 hours of battery time.
>> >
>> > The second is an Atom N230 (single core 1.6GHz) that I use as my
>> > firewall/router.  It is in a phone book size box that has 2 PCI slots
>> > so I
>> > had no trouble getting 3 NICs into it.  I don't use the video at all
>> > so I could care less about the performance there.  I like the low
>> power
>> > consumption (about 1/3 of the power is used by the 2 PCI NICs I
>> added).
>> > It is faster than the old AMD K6-2 500MHz system it replaced while
>> > using less than half the power so I am happy.
>> >
>> > Frankly I can't think of anything else I would use an atom for.  If I
>> > could get one that could handle a crapload of storage I might
>> consider
>> > it for a file server (sort of a DIY NAS) but none of them I have seen
>> > would be capable of that.
>> >
>> > I would like to try a newer Atom Z530 based system though.  Those are
>> > dual
>> > core still 1.6GHz but they have some newer features like hardware
>> > virtualization.  It is probably still wimpy but it may be well suited
>> > to the low powered netbook market.  Were any of the ones you tested
>> > from the Z series?
>> >
>> > On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:08:46 -0800 (PST)
>> > "Bryan J. Smith" <b.j.smith at ieee.org> wrote:
>> >> Okay, I've now had the chance to mess with various types of
>> netbooks:
>> >> - Intel single/dual-core 45nm Atoms with the 65nm 965GSC
>> >> - Intel single/dual-core, ultra-low voltage 45nm Pentium with same
>> >> - AMD, single-core, low voltage 65nm Athlon 64 with 55nm M690E
>> >> - AMD, single/dual-core, low voltage 65nm Neo [x2] with 55nm M780G
>> >>
>> >> Let's get one thing straight, the 2-issue, in-line, non-speculative
>> >> Atom
>> >> sucks. You could quad core it and then you'll get what an aged AMD
>> Neo
>> >> does. Anything with an Atom is going to be CPU limited.  Ironically,
>> >> the
>> >> 965GSC makes a great partner for the Atom here.  The nice thing is
>> >> that you do get 6 hours out of the sucker, and that should improve
>> >> with Intel
>> >> outsourcing to TSMC and their 40nm process for the GPUs.  I
>> understand
>> >> the reasons for Atom, but as they have existed so far, they make
>> poor
>> >> processor for a general purpose OS.
>> >>
>> >> nVidia has introduced it's Ion chipset for Atom.  But adding a GPU
>> to
>> >> a processor that struggles with basic operations is not going to
>> help
>> >> much.
>> >> As I said, the old 965GSC design is a perfect match.  ;)
>> >>
>> >> Now, ironically, I've had the chance to mess with some of the
>> nexgen,
>> >> 45nm, ultra-low voltage Pentium processors, including dual-core.
>> >> Those actually have a bit of kick to them.  GHz for GHz, they will
>> >> slump against AMD, but Intel has the power-GHz superior fab
>> >> technology, so they come out ahead in both performance and battery
>> >> life.  Almost makes you want to forget Atom, as they can give you 4
>> >> hours.  The pricing is the only problem at this point.
>> >>
>> >> I haven't checked if nVidia has a solution for these ULV Pentium
>> >> designs.
>> >> If they use the same interconnect, they should.  I need to
>> investigate
>> >> further, but there are few netbooks in this area so far.
>> >>
>> >> AMD has a problem.  They are still selling 2+ year-old technology,
>> and
>> >> we're still waiting for 45nm products to hit the market.  You have a
>> >> choice of the low-voltage 65nm Athlon 64 or the optimized, but still
>> >> aged 65nm Neo [x2] single/dual-core.
>> >>
>> >> The Neo x2 is capable of keeping up with feeding the newer Radeon
>> >> 2100-3200 GPU cores (M690x and M740x/780x), definitely bests the
>> >> ULV Pentium dual-cores GHz for GHz, but at an extreme power penalty.
>> >> So the power and cost savings with Neo [x2] over Turion [x2] is
>> >> minimal,
>> >> and yesteryear's refurbished models are the only affordable under
>> >> $500. Same problem as the ULV Pentium on the pricing front (worse
>> >> battery than
>> >> it though).
>> >>
>> >> Which brings us to the low-voltage Athlon 64.  Here you have a
>> 1.2GHz
>> >> Athlon 64, underclocked and power drops below 25W.  But then it
>> can't
>> >> feed even the old 2100 GPU core (shrunk to 55nm in the M690E).  I
>> >> know, I just bought one.  It's great for normal usage, kicks the
>> >> living crap out of a dual-core Atom (ignore the artificial
>> >> benchmarks, I've used both myself on Linux and Windows), and then
>> you
>> >> have the GPU for off-load of things the 965GSC just can't do.  And
>> >> that's the funny part.  You can jack up filtering, textures, etc...
>> >> on that Radeon 2100 GPU without hitting the CPU at all (unlike the
>> >> feature-set in the 965GSC) -- "totally free."  But the GPU still
>> >> can't drive/off-load the actual CPU operations, so if the CPU is hit
>> >> hard (doing absolutely nothing to do with any
>> 3D/rendering/playback),
>> >> it doesn't matter.
>> >>
>> >> AMD does this to get the CPU power consumption down, and battery
>> life
>> >> to 4-5 hours.  The chipset is already 10-15W at 55nm, and the new
>> revs
>> >> will go to sub-10W at TSMC's 40nm (although Intel's new use of TSMC
>> as
>> >> a
>> >> foundry might get interesting on speed-to-market).
>> >>
>> >> Now it's clear AMD took a major chunk of the market with the
>> >> low-voltage
>> >> Athlon+M690E combo.  Because _all_ of the Acer-Gateway and whitebox
>> >> models I've seen lately are sporting a ULV Pentium Single/Dual-Core
>> >> with
>> >> an Intel chipset like the X3000/4000 series.  It's funny because
>> that
>> >> now
>> >> reverses the problem (and even kills the battery a little bit more
>> >> than AMD's aged solution).  The only AMD combos I can find are old
>> >> models**.
>> >>
>> >> AMD has a great GPU, but is either CPU-limited or power-limited (by
>> >> CPU).
>> >>
>> >> Intel has a great CPU (ULV Pentium), but is always ships a GPU
>> clunker
>> >> (in _real_ features, not those artificial "dumb framebuffer"
>> >> benchmarks), let alone in Linux (where the Intel driver totally
>> lacks
>> >> IP
>> >> features of their Windows counterparts -- ATI and nVidia offer a
>> >> closed source driver for such).
>> >>
>> >> So, in a nutshell, there's no happy medium right now.  Maybe Intel
>> >> will stop fighting with nVidia and work with them for a combo to the
>> >> ULV Pentium. Then again, pricing is still an issue -- and I hope
>> >> AMD's new 45nm finally delivers what it should.  2GHz 45nm
>> single-core
>> >> performance
>> >> of 4-5 hours with a 40nm M780G/T (Radeon 3100) or successor.  But
>> >> right now it seems there's still a lot of old stock out there.
>> >>
>> >> -- Bryan
>> >>
>> >> **P.S.  With that said, I still just bought the older LV Athlon +
>> >> M690E refurb combo for $270 from Woot.  The 1.2GHz Athlon 64 is
>> >> capable of meeting requirements for a 2GHz Penitum 4, and -- again,
>> >> it's funny -- to jack up _all_ of the DirectX 9 / OpenGL 2.x
>> features
>> >> for shading and textures with the Radeon X1270 (2100) integrated GPU
>> >> and it makes _no_difference_ in performance (because the GPU can
>> >> handle them).  It's that CPU doing background stuff in a title that
>> >> seems to hit any performance, not any rendering (the GPU is more
>> than
>> >> capable).  At least
>> >> memory and disk are beyond the artificial XP netbook $5 pricing,
>> >> although it ships Vista, I'm running Linux on it anyway.  ;)
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > - --
>> > ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~
>> >     Kevin Korb            Phone:    (407) 252-6853
>> >     Systems Administrator        Internet:
>> >     FutureQuest, Inc.        Kevin at FutureQuest.net  (work)
>> >     Orlando, Florida        kmk at sanitarium.net (personal)
>> >     Web page:            http://www.sanitarium.net/
>> >     PGP public key available on web site.
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> - --
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> 	Kevin Korb			Phone:    (407) 252-6853
> 	Systems Administrator		Internet:
> 	FutureQuest, Inc.		Kevin at FutureQuest.net  (work)
> 	Orlando, Florida		kmk at sanitarium.net (personal)
> 	Web page:			http://www.sanitarium.net/
> 	PGP public key available on web site.
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